7 March 2018 Transcript

1GC FAMILY LAW – INDEPENDENT REVIEW
Interview with
DR LIZ DAVIES
on
7 March 2018
PRESENT
SARAH MORGAN
LUCY SPRINZ
DR LIZ DAVIES


Transcribed from a recording by
Ubiqus
Official Court Reporters
211-299 Borough High Street, London SE1 1JG
Tel: 020 7269 0370
Fax: 020 7405 9884
2
1 MS MORGAN: Just by way of introduction because we’re recording to say that Lucy
2 and I are here today with Dr Davies. We’ve checked the device. It seems to
3 be able to record small conversations in far corners of the room so there’s no
4 need for us to adjust our speaking at all for it. Okay?
5 Thank you for your contribution, which I’ve read and I think we brought
6 a copy for you in case you did or didn’t have it with you. As I said to you in
7 the email correspondence we had, as a result of reading all of that and the
8 material that you provided I think to [Penny Nicholson?] who’s collating
9 information for me on a memory stick, I’ve actually from your submission had
10 answered some of the questions I might otherwise have. I’ve obviously got a
11 few for you but I just wondered by way of starting whether having sent me the
12 submission that you did, the 18 February submission, whether there was
13 anything that you wanted to add to what you said in that today?
14 DR DAVIES: Not really. It’s difficult to say without knowing what your steer is
15 really, knowing what directions you’re going in. I think I made it clear my
16 whole wish is for there to be proper organised abuse multi-agency
17 investigation into the crimes against children in Islington over all the years,
18 and I know you’re limited in your years.
19 MS MORGAN: Well you know the times, obviously.
20 DR DAVIES: But they are different from what we were promised by Richard Watson
21 at the Council meeting on 28 September. So I am having to grapple with that
22 because we did agree from ’70 onwards. Anyway that’s my point.
23 [Crosstalk]
24 DR DAVIES: That’s my overarching interest here. This is only one part of a much
25 bigger picture and that’s the picture that needs addressing.
26 MS MORGAN: As you know this is the part that I’m dealing with.
27 DR DAVIES: Yes.
28 MS MORGAN: Just actually so that you know, I was careful to go re-read again the
29 minutes of 27 September meeting so that I can get a picture of what was
30 discussed and said there. In terms of a steer, and again you’re here for me to
31 ask you questions rather than the reverse.
32 DR DAVIES: I did ask for a conversation.
33 MS MORGAN: Yes, and I think I said I would give you the opportunity to hear what
34 you’ve said.
3
1 DR DAVIES: That’s not a conversation really.
2 MS MORGAN: In terms of…
3 DR DAVIES: It’s not like an equal sort of – you know, anyway I don’t know that I
4 should be put any pressure.
5 MS MORGAN: I’m not intending to put you under any pressure but in terms of a steer,
6 so that you know, and I’m saying this to everybody, I’m working to the terms
7 of reference I’ve been given which are the ones that we have here on the table.
8 Which is, insofar as there is a steer, is what I have. I also know, which is part
9 of the reason I wanted to go back and read the minutes, that you’re quite right
10 when you say this is one part of something. This I also know is one part of
11 what’s going on in Islington. What I’ve been appointed to do is one part of
12 other discussions and I’m not involved in the other ones which I know you are.
13 So I’m sure there’s going to be some places where we overlap and some places
14 where we don’t.
15 DR DAVIES: Sure, just to clarify, there isn’t any investigation going on into these
16 issues.
17 MS MORGAN: I see.
18 DR DAVIES: There isn’t a police investigation. There isn’t a Council investigation.
19 There isn’t a LADO investigation.
20 MS MORGAN: Okay. Thank you. You’ve obviously been in Islington for a number
21 of years. I read that you first worked for a few months in 1973 I think it was.
22 DR DAVIES: Yes.
23 MS MORGAN: Was that your first professional time in Islington or are you long time
24 Islington person before that?
25 DR DAVIES: No, I’ve never lived in Islington and I was just qualified then. There’s a
26 little story to that I did share which is that I was working in Ealing and Ealing
27 in those days seconded me to do my social work course at the School of
28 Economics.
29 MS MORGAN: What from…?
30 DR DAVIES: From Ealing. In those days they paid for the course.
31 MS MORGAN: Yes, of course.
32 DR DAVIES: Part of the arrangement was that you would then go back and work for
33 them for two years.
34 MS MORGAN: Right.
4
1 DR DAVIES: I went to see the director at the time.
2 MS MORGAN: Of Ealing?
3 DR DAVIES: Of Ealing. When I finished my course and my marriage had broken up.
4 My partner was a Labour councillor in Ealing and I said, ‘This isn’t a good
5 idea, conflict of interest. I don’t think I can return to Ealing. So I wish to
6 leave and go to another authority.’ And he said to me, ‘You’re now on a black
7 list and you’ll never work again and you – blah, blah. No social worker whose
8 marriage has broken up should ever be a social worker.’ I got all that.
9 MS MORGAN: Is this early ‘70s?
10 DR DAVIES: This was, yes, this was in context you know and there’s a lot about him
11 that’s come out in the years but – so I was left without employment. But
12 anyway I applied to Islington, anyway. John Rea Price was the only person
13 who would employ me.
14 MS MORGAN: Okay.
15 DR DAVIES: Which is of interest now because it could have given him some sort of
16 hold over me or, you know, why was he so different from this whole
17 all-London arrangement? You know I query it now looking back. It was an
18 interesting thing. But then I worked there for a bit then I – which is helpful
19 now because I’m seeing survivors from that era and I know all the names of
20 the staff and the offices. So I have the familiarity with it. Then I was doing a
21 lot of writing as I’ve always done and I got an academic post at Middlesex then
22 and so within about six months I’d gone to academia.
23 MS MORGAN: And that seconding from, in your case, Ealing to Islington, was that
24 common in those days? In the early ‘70s for one borough to employ somebody
25 from another borough?
26 DR DAVIES: I have no idea. I just knew that there were reasons that you can say it
27 was not appropriate for me to continue working in this authority. You’d be
28 released from the agreement; that was well known to happen. He was a
29 particular person that was the director at that time. He said there was this
30 system of black listing and so on. I don’t know but anyway that was the story.
31 But I wasn’t there very long before going into academia. I was mental health
32 focussed there not children’s because I began work pre-SIBO[?] so I was in the
33 mental health team. I was generic when I came to Islington in ’73 it had just
34 come in really. Then academia then all sorts of things, community work and a
5
1 lot of writing and then, yeah, so then there’s the bookshop here when I met
2 Sandy Marks in that capacity at that time as a community worker. Then back
3 to children and so on and back to Islington in ’86.
4 MS MORGAN: I see. Can I pause you there for a moment? Do you mind, I know we
5 shouldn’t complain when we’ve got sun. It’s just that inevitably I sit in a place
6 where I have sit and squint at you the entire time in a quite hostile way.
7 DR DAVIES: But it was ’86 I came in, as most women do, right at the bottom of the
8 rung again and it was just basic grade social worker and had to start learning
9 all over again. But very quickly became senior and worked in four different
10 offices, neighbourhood offices.
11 MS MORGAN: Okay.
12 DR DAVIES: The last one was Irene Watson Neighbourhood Office. That’s where
13 this story began for me. It didn’t begin earlier although I’d been in Beaumont
14 Rise before Irene Watson. Beaumont Rise was a place where ever such a lot of
15 what I’m now talking about happened even while I was there but I wasn’t
16 aware of it.
17 MS MORGAN: Right. I’d like to ask you about the neighbourhood – I was going to
18 say neighbourhood watch – neighbourhood offices in a minute. Can I just,
19 because you’ve mentioned it, obviously you know that what I am most
20 interested in my terms of reference is stuff that directly gives me knowledge
21 and information from people about Sandy Marks and her part. Those are my
22 terms of reference. A moment or two ago you talked about the bookshop era,
23 which I think is the Rising Free bookshop you mentioned in your submission.
24 DR DAVIES: That’s right, yeah.
25 MS MORGAN: What can you tell me about that? So that you know, although I have
26 lived in London for many years I was not in London in the late 70s early 80s
27 and my knowledge of London is sort of mid-80s onwards. So tell me about
28 first of all the Rising Free bookshop, what you know about it and how you
29 place Sandy Marks with that.
30 DR DAVIES: She was always there. She ran it. She was one of the people that ran it.
31 Don’t ask me the other names, no idea. I can’t remember now. I remember
32 there was a man that worked there.
33 MS MORGAN: What sort of year was that?
34 DR DAVIES: So this would have been from ‘73 onwards probably, I think.
6
1 MS MORGAN: Okay.
2 DR DAVIES: And myself and my current husband we were in it. We set up a
3 bookshop. We used to go there to collect stock. So you’d go and there’d just
4 be piles of leaflets and newspapers everywhere, all sorts, all sorts.
5 MS MORGAN: What was…
6 DR DAVIES: But not really books.
7 MS MORGAN: Okay.
8 DR DAVIES: More pamphlets that kind of literature. Left-wing literature and
9 ‘alternative’ is the word because there was a federation of alternative
10 bookshops which, actually, hardly anyone has ever written anything about; if
11 you go online, you’ll probably find nothing about it. But I’ve got some old
12 directories called ‘Alternative England and Wales’ ‘Alternative London’ and
13 they’re in all those directories. So there’s proof they existed and where they
14 existed. There was about 25 or so across the country.
15 MS MORGAN: Right.
16 DR DAVIES: They were all very similar. They were non-politically aligned. You
17 know, not politically aligned to a party or anything. It was very much
18 community work which was my interest in it really. So the ones I was
19 involved in had like women’s groups, women’s liberation era, women’s
20 groups, men’s groups, crèches, craft workshops. We ran a vegetarian café next
21 to the bookshop.
22 MS MORGAN: Was that also in King’s Cross?
23 DR DAVIES: No, no, these were in the bookshops we knew and were involved in. So,
24 but they weren’t just bookshops. They were whole centres for all kinds of
25 things so in that era it was CANUS[?] union, squatting, a learning exchange
26 system, people could exchange teaching you something for something for you
27 teaching them something else. All those ideas were coming to fruition then
28 and it was a very exciting time actually, a very exciting time. So it was also
29 linked with all the environmental causes and gay liberation. So there was this
30 slight overlap with paedophile liberation campaign. So we knew about it at the
31 time but we didn’t – for some reason we knew it was absolutely not the right
32 thing.
33 MS MORGAN: When you say ‘we’ who do you mean?
34 DR DAVIES: My husband.
7
1 MS MORGAN: Okay.
2 DR DAVIES: We ran the shop together and also everyone in our collective. Nobody
3 would ever have encountered that at all to be frank. But along with that time
4 some people would give us a document and say, ‘Oh I went to this meeting and
5 I got this. This isn’t good.’ So I kept a couple of things from that time and
6 you know put them on Spotlight on Abuse, they’re up there. Original
7 documents that came from that era. Now where they came from, you know,
8 honestly I can’t remember. I have a feeling inside me that that was around at
9 Rising Free but I cannot evidence that in any shape or form. But they were
10 hugely influential.
11 MS MORGAN: ‘They’ the Rising Free?
12 DR DAVIES: Rising Free. Because we would be all from wherever localities, there
13 was bookshops in Nottingham, Manchester. We were a community. If there
14 was a Women’s Conference then we would all pitch in and do a bookstall. So
15 there was this whole country community of people in this kind of movement,
16 loose fitting movement. We ran free presses and things like that. So we’d go
17 there and you would be looking for, ‘Oh what’s the latest?’ You know,
18 because they were like central and they were like the wholesalers. They would
19 talk, ‘Have you seen this new pamphlet? Have you seen it?’ So they were
20 very, very influential. That’s certainly what I remember.
21 I felt a little bit, what’s the word, secondary to them. I felt sort of in awe
22 of them perhaps. I was very young. You know, I felt a bit in awe of them.
23 They had a status about them. Linked with that there was the One, Two, Three
24 Crèche. That was Park Hill.
25 MS MORGAN: Right.
26 DR DAVIES: I remember going there.
27 MS MORGAN: When you say ‘linked with it’ do you mean linked with…
28 DR DAVIES: Well because Sandy was connected with Rising Free and then I met her.
29 You’ve got to imagine this doesn’t have to mean an awful lot it’s just this is
30 the world at that time. We were squatting in London. We were doing legal
31 squatting where Housing Associations bought properties that were run down
32 and couldn’t do them up, hadn’t got the money. They agreed for us to live
33 there. As soon as they said they’d got money we moved out to another one.
8
1 So that was like addressing homelessness in London. We had a whole street in
2 Crouch End, a whole street.
3 MS MORGAN: Which street?
4 DR DAVIES: In Nelson Road.
5 MS MORGAN: Okay.
6 DR DAVIES: Nelson Road. We had the only bath. That’s a story. So yeah, you can
7 imagine. It was communal. And then there were whole – Tolmer’s Square we
8 used to go to where there was all sorts of projects. That was all squatted, all
9 those flats there were squatted. Hornsey Rise was squatted. Sandy was
10 involved in that in Hornsey Rise. So wherever you went, Women’s
11 Conferences or whatever, you would see the same people. So she certainly
12 knows me from that era and I certainly know her. I do remember going to her
13 squat once. I remember meeting her in her kitchen. She had her child. I have
14 no idea what I was going there. I also remember going to the nursery, the One,
15 Two, Three and it was again, this was a big idea. This was revolutionary in a
16 broad sense. Men in a crèche, children being brought up to be gender free,
17 gender neutral. There was a pamphlet called Project Baby X. Have you heard
18 of that?
19 MS MORGAN: Yes.
20 DR DAVIES: Well that was really, really connected with that nursery. Don’t ask me
21 how but I know that we got that book, that story for our bookshop and that that
22 was very much the philosophy of that crèche.
23 MS MORGAN: Can I just ask you, I’m just trying to pick out things that you’re telling
24 me about that I need to know more about. The Rising Free bookshop, did you
25 then at that time have that in your mind as something that was distributing
26 paedophile literature? Is that what you’re…?
27 DR DAVIES: No, I can’t say that I…
28 MS MORGAN: Okay.
29 DR DAVIES: All I can say is it was around at the time and we and many other people
30 rejected it.
31 MS MORGAN: ‘The time’ again, I know…
32 DR DAVIES: Early to mid-70s.
33 MS MORGAN: Right, okay.
34 DR DAVIES: Yeah.
9
1 MS MORGAN: And when you speak about Sandy Marks, I think one of the people
2 running it, was it that she worked there or she owned it or she was in charge of
3 it?
4 DR DAVIES: I have no idea. Same as we, you know, it was all…
5 MS MORGAN: I just wanted to know what you meant by that.
6 DR DAVIES: No, it’s a reasonable question. To go back to that time you’ve got to put
7 everything in context. We were running – they were all non-profit making. So
8 they only were doing it for time. We had no income from it whatsoever.
9 Everybody managed by pitching in with everybody else. We had food co-ops,
10 so all the food was cheap, you know, all the rest of it. So, I lost my thread
11 there… Some people were living on the dole. You know? It was possible in
12 those days. That was like political. Sounds mad now, doesn’t it? But it was a
13 political statement. Some people said, ‘We don’t want to pay tax for war,’ and
14 everything, ‘So we’ll be on benefit.’ It was the philosophy at the time. I
15 imagine that was her. I don’t know that she was doing that as well. Just
16 working in this fulltime for nothing.
17 MS MORGAN: I appreciate – when I’m asking you from the different era whether
18 somebody’s running something or working in it as an employee or as a
19 volunteer or whatever, I understand it’s a different time. I wanted to have a
20 sense of what you were telling me her role was in the shop.
21 DR DAVIES: They were collectives. They were all collectives. They were
22 experiment – just like everyone lived in communes and we worked in
23 collectives and the whole idea was to explore concepts of equality, non24 hierarchical arrangements and so on. So that was Rising Free was very much a
25 part of that. I don’t know how it actually ran. I just know that they were
26 involved, as we were, in many other strands. There was an Islington Gutter
27 Press. Are you aware of that?
28 MS MORGAN: I don’t think I am actually.
29 DR DAVIES: Yeah, that’s quite important really.
30 MS MORGAN: Called what?
31 DR DAVIES: Islington Gutter Press.
32 MS MORGAN: Right.
33 DR DAVIES: An archive of it is in the St John’s Street library, the Islington Library.
10
1 MS MORGAN: Oh yes, that I do know of. Are you saying that Sandy Marks was
2 involved with that?
3 DR DAVIES: I would expect like everybody she would have been. No, because it was
4 part and parcel of everything. Rising Free certainly advertised in there.
5 MS MORGAN: Right.
6 DR DAVIES: The crèche is mentioned in there.
7 MS MORGAN: Did you advertise in that?
8 DR DAVIES: No, because we weren’t based in the same place and in that particular
9 time it’s like different era, we had one bookshop in Luton at that time and then
10 we [inaudible] had Archway Road, a much bigger collective. The Archway
11 Road one is huge houses. Loads of stuff went on in there. So she would, she
12 would definitely… But Rising Free moved around a lot. It was in different
13 venues. It was in Drummond Street. It was in Upper Street. I remember
14 going to, no, I really don’t remember those other places. I know it was Bread
15 & Roses in Upper Street. Hard to know if she was involved in that, I don’t
16 really remember to be honest.
17 MS MORGAN: Okay. And I had read about I think in your submission the Rising
18 Free in King’s Cross.
19 DR DAVIES: Yeah.
20 MS MORGAN: Do you know how long it was in King’s Cross? Did it move around
21 from there?
22 DR DAVIES: It was there pretty well all the time I was involved in going there for
23 stock.
24 MS MORGAN: Right.
25 DR DAVIES: I don’t remember getting stock from anywhere else. I could’ve done.
26 It’s all a bit of a blur to be honest but some things you remember vividly.
27 Feelings, as well, strong feelings.
28 MS MORGAN: What I particularly wanted to ask you was whether you were saying to
29 me, and you’ve told me you’re not, that Rising Free was distributing
30 paedophile literature?
31 DR DAVIES: Don’t know. Can’t remember.
32 MS MORGAN: Okay.
33 DR DAVIES: There was a social worker called Anne Goldie. Have you heard about
34 her?
11
1 MS MORGAN: I have.
2 DR DAVIES: She was retired at the time I was raising all the issues in Islington but
3 she knew a lot of people. We knew each other. She said she would come
4 forward in a way that I couldn’t because I was still employed at the time. At
5 the time she would go see MPs and go to the media and do stuff we couldn’t
6 do. She gave me a PIE document and original, you know, not a Foolscap.
7 Bigger than Foolscap. Dates the document, isn’t it? And she, that was in the
8 early 70s, she’d been to a PIE meeting of some kind or been to a conference
9 where they were giving it out. She was very much based in Islington. So she’s
10 dead now so we can’t ask her anymore. These ideas were around. I met a
11 survivor who said at a school summer fête, PIE had a stall there. So that was
12 in the early 70s so the literature was being, you know, you get a feel that the
13 literature was being promoted. But exactly who by is difficult to know.
14 MS MORGAN: Yeah, and I’m trying, I was trying to have an understanding for myself
15 of how you and Sandy Marks in your various Islington careers intersect at all.
16 I had thought that maybe you had met her when you came in 1986 but it
17 sounds as though you knew her earlier than that from what you’ve just been
18 saying to me?
19 DR DAVIES: I only knew of her. I wouldn’t say I really knew her. You know? I’d
20 bump into her at all these various things as part of what was going on. I didn’t
21 know her personally. I would never have known her when I worked in
22 Islington, obviously.
23 MS MORGAN: Insofar as you knew of her, is she somebody that you associated then
24 with Paedophile Information Exchange or anything like that?
25 DR DAVIES: No. When I worked in Islington?
26 MS MORGAN: At all when you knew her? I was asking about when you were
27 bumping into her in the collectives and so on.
28 DR DAVIES: I can’t really say that she was really. She was part and parcel of
29 everything going on at the time. And, you know, that literature was being
30 distributed. They were a wholesaler. I can’t really make any more
31 assumptions than that really.
32 MS MORGAN: That’s fair. That’s fair. In your time in Islington when you came,
33 worked in Islington, am I right that that’s from ’86?
34 DR DAVIES: Yes.
12
1 MS MORGAN: That’s what I understood from your documents.
2 DR DAVIES: That’s right, yes.
3 MS MORGAN: I’d like to understand a little bit more about how you and Sandy
4 Marks, if at all, overlapped or whether you encountered her at all?
5 DR DAVIES: No, not at all.
6 MS MORGAN: Okay.
7 DR DAVIES: Oh, no, wrong. When I was – 1993, I’d left, it was after I’d left.
8 MS MORGAN: Okay, I’d like to ask you separately about after.
9 DR DAVIES: That’s a different thing. Then I didn’t meet her but I’d heard about her.
10 MS MORGAN: Okay, right.
11 DR DAVIES: Then. She was one of the whole number of… I was grassroots; I was
12 on the ground social worker. I wasn’t allowed to speak to councillors or
13 politicians. It wasn’t allowed. You’d be disciplined. I wasn’t allowed to raise
14 issues with any politician in any shape or form. So I wouldn’t have anything
15 to do with any of them. You know? Margaret Hodge, because indirectly,
16 sorry, no, she had a specific role as councillor of our area. So I did meet her.
17 But in my professional role. Though she’s said she doesn’t remember me at
18 all. I remember her.
19 MS MORGAN: Sorry. One of the reasons I’m asking that is because I want to have a
20 better understanding than I can just get from looking at records is, I wanted to
21 know whether there was any direct reporting by you of any concerns directly to
22 Sandy Marks herself?
23 DR DAVIES: Via my lawyer. Definitely you’ve got copies of that.
24 MS MORGAN: I’m asking about you personally in your social work days. Whether,
25 and you may…
26 [Crosstalk]
27 DR DAVIES: I wouldn’t, no I wouldn’t. It wouldn’t have been appropriate in any
28 sense. My reporting was to my line manager, to the Director of Social
29 Services, the Assistant Director. Not even to the Director, to the Assistant
30 Directors and do the, indirectly… I mean I wasn’t even at the level of the Area
31 Child Protection Committee reporting to them or reporting to the Director of
32 Social Services. I was really low down in the ranking, in the ranks.
33 MS MORGAN: I’m not really asking about why or whether it was appropriate. I just
34 want to understand whether it ever happened.
13
1 DR DAVIES: No.
2 MS MORGAN: Because obviously if you were going to come here and say to me, ‘I
3 discovered this thing and that thing that was happening. I reported it directly
4 to Sandy Marks and nothing.’ Then I would want to know about that.
5 DR DAVIES: Yeah, no.
6 MS MORGAN: And I just want to be clear.
7 DR DAVIES: I don’t have any memory of it at all and I’m sure I would remember it to
8 be honest. It would stand out in my mind.
9 MS MORGAN: I do want to ask you about the management but I just wanted to check.
10 DR DAVIES: I should also say that because I didn’t live in Islington I wasn’t actually
11 that familiar with the politics of Islington, you know? Not the in’s and out’s of
12 who was councillor and who was what party. I wouldn’t have known. I
13 wasn’t based here in that way.
14 MS MORGAN: Just saying it out loud more for the recording than anything else, I’ve
15 been asking you about Sandy Marks and you helpfully dealt with that from part
16 11 onwards of your submissions. One of the things that you’ve said explicitly
17 is how much Sandy Marks knew of the situations that you’ve told me about in
18 your submissions before The Evening Standard reported it.
19 DR DAVIES: Yes, that’s right.
20 MS MORGAN: October ’92, you have no idea. You’ve gone on to talk about things
21 that were publicised in the Islington Gazette that you think she would, might
22 have read. You have said that you would hope those issues were discussed at
23 Council meetings and the LBC RPC. I just want to be clear that I’ve
24 understood your submission correctly that what you’re saying to me is that you
25 would hope that there be knowledge from that but you have no personal
26 knowledge of what knowledge she did have. Have I understood it right what
27 you’re saying?
28 DR DAVIES: Yes, I think… We’re talking in the late 80s, various murders and…
29 MS MORGAN: Yeah.
30 DR DAVIES: What I would call, from what I know now, pretty substantial events
31 involving children that were known to Islington Social Services and had been
32 in – two of them in one children’s home. I would have thought now, knowing
33 the role she was in at the time, that that would have been brought to her
14
1 attention in some way. I would think it fairly incredible if it hadn’t been.
2 That’s how I’m thinking about it looking back.
3 MS MORGAN: Right.
4 DR DAVIES: But there, again, I was you know, in that area at that time and I didn’t
5 know about it. Well, I didn’t know about it in that sense but I have a number
6 of notebooks from that time which record someone had just said, ‘Oh, weren’t
7 you aware a child’s been found in a garage, stabbed 30-something times.’ You
8 know, it was in [Comer Street?]. You know, and I’d write it down and I’d got
9 the names a bit wrong but it was only years later I found the press cuttings and
10 found the first name was correct. The garage bit was right and pieced it all
11 together. So you know, how was it that I, and I was a senior social worker,
12 didn’t, wasn’t aware of something as major as that? Or Vivian Loki that was
13 found in the cupboard. I’ve got notes saying ‘Vivian Loki’ – I’d got her name
14 correctly, this is in a number of different places – ‘Decomposed body found in
15 cupboard.’ I thought she’d been found in the children’s centre, because it then
16 says, ‘Highbury Crescent’. ‘Oh, she must have been found in the children’s
17 home.’ Because now I know the cupboard was, but it was a cupboard, so that
18 bit was right, at the bottom of the flats. And I was working in that area at the
19 time, almost next door to those flats. So how come I didn’t know everything
20 about something just so serious as child sexual exploitation going on that led to
21 involve the murder of a young girl? Horrendous. So, so you know, if that’s
22 me, Sandy will have her own story of what she knew about and what she didn’t
23 know about.
24 MS MORGAN: I really, to be clear, I just wanted to be sure that I was understanding
25 what you were saying.
26 DR DAVIES: Yes, you are.
27 MS MORGAN: I understood what you were saying is you think probably from these
28 things you thought she might have been but you were not telling me that, to
29 your knowledge.
30 DR DAVIES: That she definitely would know, no, she wouldn’t because, you know…
31 Now that we know who knows, I would have hoped that would have been on
32 the Council’s agenda or there would have been meetings or whatever. But
33 certainly where I went on to work in Harrow we would have had a meeting
34 about that, a media strategy and all kinds of things would have gone on. So,
15
1 but, in the context of this and what we know about it I wouldn’t be surprised if
2 it was kept very quiet.
3 MS MORGAN: Just, and again so it’s clear, I’m just working through what you told
4 me about Sandy Marks in your submission so that I understand that I’m
5 understanding properly. The next thing that appears in that little section,
6 section 11 is 11.2 where you say, ‘I know Sandy Marks attended the Islington
7 press conference in July ’93 because I sat in a café across the road from the
8 town hall. Chair of BASW, David Jones, attended it.’ Then you recall he
9 came in to the café rather shaken and said he’d had an altercation with Sandy
10 Marks. He repeated that to you more recently. Do you know what that
11 altercation was about?
12 DR DAVIES: I understood that she threatened to hit him. I didn’t want to put that in
13 writing because I’d had no evidence of all of that other than that was my
14 understanding memory of the time. But he’s very contactable.
15 MS MORGAN: Sure, I mean, inelegantly expressed by me, what I actually meant was
16 do you know what had caused them to have the altercation? What was the
17 subject?
18 DR DAVIES: No, I don’t know. The fact that he was there on behalf of BASW must
19 have been in some way inflammatory. I don’t know. He can tell that story.
20 MS MORGAN: If I need to, I can ask him. I just noticed you’d drawn it to my
21 attention.
22 DR DAVIES: Other people spoke about it at the time. I heard about it from other
23 people who were there. You know, so, it must have been noted.
24 MS MORGAN: This is the press conference in July ’93?
25 DR DAVIES: Yeah, yes, I’d thought it was ’95 but then I checked my records, it was
26 the ’93 one.
27 MS MORGAN: You’ve actually already explained to me the fact that you didn’t meet
28 any councillors in your role.
29 DR DAVIES: Except Margaret Hodge.
30 MS MORGAN: Then I think you go on to say after the White Report, Alan Laws and
31 Richard Greening at their request. What was that for?
32 DR DAVIES: Well after the White enquiry finished they contacted me and asked to
33 meet me. I didn’t really know why. I think I met them a few times. Alan Laws
34 wrote some reports for Jeremy Corbyn and so on at the time. I don’t remember
16
1 [inaudible] to know what it was about. I think you know they came to me as if
2 they were supportive. As if they were an undercurrent of Councillors who
3 thought that I was right. Alan Laws got an Advice Line set up after the enquiry.
4 MS MORGAN: After the White enquiry?
5 DR DAVIES: After the White enquiry. For survivors to come or anyone and get
6 support but it was, so he did do that but it was NSPCC. He wanted someone
7 independent. I understood that. But it was publicised as ‘NSPCC and Islington
8 Council’s’ so nobody went to it. And I got called up by a really good woman
9 from NSPCC who I knew was running it and she had a lot of experience. She
10 said, ‘Liz, what’s happening? No one’s coming forward. Can you help us?’ I
11 said, ‘It’s because you’ve got Islington Council on the leaflets. No one thinks it’s
12 independent.’ So it didn’t really work. But Alan Laws later, I don’t know,
13 there’s other issues that came to light. But I imagine looking back they may have
14 been wondering or finding out whether I would go any further with the issues.
15 That’s on reflection. Richard Greening is still on the Council, he can answer that.
16 But you know he can answer what those meetings were about. But they came
17 across as supportive. But after the White enquiry that was when my phone was
18 tapped and you know, they got telecom involved with all of that. I think there
19 was a lot of pressure. That’s when I had a very difficult time; it was after the
20 White enquiry. I think there was a lot of fear that this wasn’t going to just be the
21 end of it all as had been planned.
22 MS MORGAN: What I really wanted to know when I read your submission about Alan
23 Laws and Richard Greening, I had a meeting with these people at your request,
24 sorry, at their request. Was whether those meeting involved Sandy Marks in any
25 way?
26 DR DAVIES: No, not in any way at all.
27 MS MORGAN: Okay.
28 DR DAVIES: She wasn’t even a name that was on my mind at that time.
29 MS MORGAN: Okay.
30 DR DAVIES: I didn’t even know they were until they came forward.
31 MS MORGAN: Okay, and I appreciate that’s obvious to you but it’s not obvious to
32 me, which is why I have to ask about it.
33 DR DAVIES: No, it’s not me as I am now; it’s me as I was then.
17
1 MS MORGAN: Okay. The next thing that you’ve told me that is useful for me is you
2 say you don’t know what issues were taken to committees or by who. So I
3 wonder whether that’s a useful way for me to ask you a little bit that I wanted to
4 ask you about how the structure of the neighbourhood offices and so on works so
5 I have a better perspective of that. I can see how it works on paper. I wanted to
6 know what the reporting lines and so on were with you.
7 DR DAVIES: Okay.
8 MS MORGAN: So looking about for example the Irene Watson neighbourhood office,
9 you’ve actually told me a little bit about this already in 2.2.
10 DR DAVIES: Yes, at the beginning, didn’t I?
11 MS MORGAN: You did. So you worked in the Irene Watson neighbourhood office as
12 what?
13 DR DAVIES: A senior social worker.
14 MS MORGAN: From the start or did you start as something else?
15 DR DAVIES: From the start that was my post at Irene Watson.
16 MS MORGAN: Okay.
17 DR DAVIES: And it had been a post at Beaumont Rise acting senior. Then at Clock
18 Tower acting senior and before that, social worker at Rosedale. I started at
19 Rosedale and then I worked my way up.
20 MS MORGAN: And was this at the time that I’ve read about when there was the
21 decentralisation when you end up with 24, whatever it is, neighbourhood offices?
22 DR DAVIES: Yes.
23 MS MORGAN: Okay. So what I think is helpful for me to understand is how it
24 worked on the ground. What did it mean being a senior in that neighbourhood
25 office?
26 DR DAVIES: I loved it. We all did. Well, a lot of us did, because it was very
27 community based. It was, you know, I’d done – my background was community
28 work. I’d done a lot within mental health. I set up the Mental Health Patient’s
29 Unit in the community then. I’d done a lot of activism, community work,
30 grassroots work. So this was, the patch approach was brilliant. Because we
31 worked very closely with community groups and Islington was very strong on
32 diversity issues. So if you had a family from Somalia that was – one
33 neighbourhood would have a social worker from Somalia who would come and
34 advise you and come to all your meetings. You know, every, if you imagine the
18
1 diversity in Islington at that time. So there was a lot of support for that approach
2 and it worked very well. So I had a team of five social workers and another under
3 5’s worker that did all the play centres and things. There was a home care
4 worker, you know, so there was the whole home help service that we ran. It was
5 generic work so if I had work with a family and there were childcare issues that
6 was neglect, I had the home help service right on the spot to say, ‘Do a clean up
7 over there.’ All these services were so close and working together on the ground.
8 There was environmental health, there was housing and it was open plan.
9 MS MORGAN: What the office?
10 DR DAVIES: The office. Yes. Around, ours was you know open plan. There was a
11 reception area and the receptionist was a local woman and she’d just yell, ‘Liz,
12 someone to see you.’ It was that kind of informality which one could be critical
13 of but on the other hand, it meant we knew everybody and people would come in
14 and say, ‘You want to go around to so-and-so; she’s suicidal.’ Or, ‘You want to
15 get around quick those children are on their own.’ So we had a real solid sense of
16 our community in the very small area and historically, people were there that
17 knew the families over generations and all that kind of thing. So, you could get
18 things to happen very quickly.
19 MS MORGAN: So if I can try and understand the structure of the community, when
20 you say for example, I see this as probably trying to use terms that are familiar to
21 me now not back then.
22 DR DAVIES: Okay, yeah.
23 MS MORGAN: When you say for example you had a team of five with you.
24 DR DAVIES: Yes.
25 MS MORGAN: Does that mean that those five people would report to you?
26 DR DAVIES: Yes.
27 MS MORGAN: And then where would you report to?
28 DR DAVIES: The neighbourhood offices social services, the NOSS, who was
29 David Cofie in that office. So he and I would run duty between us. There was a
30 duty desk downstairs. So everyone flooding in through reception. We’re just two
31 desks away and we would just see them one after another, to cover duty. It was
32 all paper files. There would be a big stack of files when you arrive on duty. You
33 work your way through the files. Then the social workers were upstairs.
34 MS MORGAN: Is that the five?
19
1 DR DAVIES: The five.
2 MS MORGAN: Right.
3 DR DAVIES: The five, and the Under 5s officer and all the other people you’d need to
4 just pop up to say, ‘Can you do this or do that?’ There’d be a community worker
5 as well. You know? So literally if you had an issue you just went to the next
6 desk. But there was very little privacy. That was an issue.
7 MS MORGAN: A positive issue or negative issue?
8 DR DAVIES: It had advantages and disadvantages. When life was jogging along
9 fairly in a straightforward social work kind of way, somebody would come in and
10 then they just might wander over to your desk and tell you something, which
11 could be okay. But if you’ve got confidential documents you had to quickly deal
12 with that. Then you know, I had a couple of situations where there was someone
13 behind me I hadn’t seen and they’d be looking at something or… So it wasn’t
14 good for that. It was very, very bad for me when I was being threatened with
15 guns, with being shot. Because there was no protection of any kind and I was
16 visible through the window. There was a short period of time when that was
17 going on when they actually – Irene Watson hired a security officer.
18 MS MORGAN: Right.
19 DR DAVIES: Because I went to the union, I had to – I was really, really frightened.
20 So it wasn’t good if someone was violent or you know for addressing that. There
21 again I think we had less violence because there weren’t the barriers, you know,
22 so there was probably up to a certain level of violence, which didn’t happen
23 because of the nature of the environment. There were two tiny interview rooms
24 that were very dark and very pokey and there was, it was hardly ever possible to
25 get one. They weren’t booked or anything, you just chanced your luck of getting
26 a room and you were competing with all these other… The other thing, in the
27 middle, they’d come straight in from the public and they would be paying their
28 rents. So they would come in to pay their rents and then they would see you
29 sitting there and they’d say, ‘Oh,’ you know, ‘Why hasn’t there been this?’ or
30 ‘What about that?’ Again that wasn’t too much of a bad thing. But you were
31 very exposed and that could present problems.
32 MS MORGAN: So insofar as somebody is sort of at the top of that neighbourhood
33 advisor, is that David Cofie or is there somebody…?
20
1 DR DAVIES: No, there was then a neighbourhood officer who was
2 [Hannah Robinson?] and [Simon Fuchs?]; I put their names in.
3 MS MORGAN: Yeah.
4 DR DAVIES: Their job was to manage the whole centre. So the whole office, the
5 whole neighbourhood office. So there as a neighbourhood office of housing, a
6 neighbourhood office of social services, a neighbourhood office for
7 environmental health. There were three, so there was the neighbourhood office of
8 the whole thing. Then three offices underneath them and then the likes of me
9 underneath them. So there were also senior housing officers and senior…
10 MS MORGAN: How does that, looking really at the flow of information, how does
11 that reporting information feedback to the Council in those days?
12 DR DAVIES: That was out of my league really. It wasn’t part of my role. But I do
13 know that there was the neighbourhood forum that met once a month in the same
14 offices. It was an early evening type meeting. That had representatives of the
15 community on it. So the neighbourhood officer organised that and then the next
16 layer of neighbourhood officers would have to do reports once a month. So
17 housing would have to say, ‘The last month this is what’s been going on in
18 housing…’ Blah, blah, blah. So I got to go to that when David Cofie then NOSS
19 couldn’t go and he was quite often away for lengthy periods. Shall we just say he
20 came from Ghana and he would have to go back to Ghana for sometimes eight or
21 ten weeks at a time and I was running the whole thing. So quite often I got to go
22 to the forums and do reports for them. So at those meetings there would be the
23 heads of the local tenants’ associations, people like that. Key community figures,
24 you know. So in that sense, that’s, you know, when I did my report, famous
25 report in 1990 I didn’t name anyone. I just said this was of concern. But then
26 Margaret Hodge contacted the Director and said this was inappropriate to raise
27 because obviously some people from the public were there. Now the flip side of
28 that, it wasn’t wrong. I didn’t do a wrong thing. But I was doing what I was
29 asked but…
30 MS MORGAN: Asked by…?
31 DR DAVIES: By the Council. They wanted reports once a month and I’m telling them
32 what was happening in the…
33 MS MORGAN: I follow.
21
1 DR DAVIES: Yeah, so, but I didn’t breach any confidentiality. But the flip side of
2 that was it was brilliant because some of these community people then came to
3 me and said, ‘Liz, I can tell you there’s queues of boys at that man’s flat every
4 day.’ You know, they – I got so much information from these, what led me to
5 develop the concept of ‘protectors’, community protectors for children.
6 MS MORGAN: This is the neighbourhood forum?
7 DR DAVIES: Yes.
8 MS MORGAN: Which I think is something different from the District Seniors
9 meetings or is that…?
10 DR DAVIES: That’s very, very different.
11 MS MORGAN: Okay.
12 DR DAVIES: Within the 24 offices there were groups of offices where seniors, like
13 myself, would meet. I can’t remember how many of us, probably about six or
14 eight or something like that. So I got to know quite well most of the other
15 seniors.
16 MS MORGAN: How often were those meetings, the District Seniors?
17 DR DAVIES: I don’t know, I don’t remember. Not very often. Perhaps every three
18 months or something?
19 MS MORGAN: Okay.
20 DR DAVIES: That’s where I raised the issue of Shepall Manor. Then I was firmly told
21 off for doing that. I shouldn’t have mentioned it. That was ludicrous. Now I
22 know many, many boys were abused by that man.
23 MS MORGAN: So in relation to those District Seniors meetings, not every often,
24 maybe about one every three months.
25 [Crosstalk]
26 DR DAVIES: They’re not on record or anything.
27 MS MORGAN: How were they arranged? Who arranged them?
28 DR DAVIES: Do you know we probably rotated amongst the offices. I don’t really
29 remember. I’ve got one set of minutes from those.
30 MS MORGAN: Is that the July ’90 minutes or…?
31 DR DAVIES: It’s where I raised about Roy Caterer and Shepall Manor.
32 MS MORGAN: Okay. Right. It would be useful, it would be quite instructive for me
33 to understand the structure of it, how they came about, who arranges them.
22
1 Because I’m interested in knowing for example who would see the minutes of
2 those meetings?
3 DR DAVIES: Only the seniors.
4 MS MORGAN: Okay.
5 DR DAVIES: Only the seniors. It was just – it was like a working arrangement.
6 MS MORGAN: I see.
7 DR DAVIES: Yeah? Just to share information or problems or… It was a very low
8 level meeting.
9 MS MORGAN: There’s no mystery about this.
10 DR DAVIES: No.
11 MS MORGAN: I want to know, sort of, what might have been fed back to people and I
12 was struggling to understand who would see the minutes of these?
13 DR DAVIES: You know I don’t think anyone would other than the seniors.
14 MS MORGAN: Okay.
15 DR DAVIES: And remember, you’re looking at a structure that was decentralised. So
16 it – you couldn’t compare it with nowadays when it would all be on computer and
17 everybody at every level would see it.
18 MS MORGAN: I completely understand. That’s a real issue actually with this whole
19 thing is that I completely understand that papers means papers.
20 DR DAVIES: Absolutely and that would’ve been, not to demean it but it was a fairly
21 information kind of, ‘Well, let’s meet up.’ It would have been between the
22 seniors who all knew each other. It would just be like, well, it would be helpful to
23 meet. It would be almost accepted a bit like a union meeting or a women’s
24 meeting. All these – there was a black workers group; they met. So the seniors
25 met. It wasn’t, I wouldn’t say it was part of a management structure in any way.
26 MS MORGAN: Right, the reason I know about it and the reason I wanted to ask
27 questions about it is because I read about it in the stuff that came from your, the
28 material you gave on memory stick. So in amongst that there’s a minute from
29 July 1999 meeting where you raising it, so that raised me the question of how is
30 that sort of meeting arranged? Who gets to see those minutes? Where do those
31 minutes go? That’s why I’m asking the questions.
32 DR DAVIES: Just to others seniors I would say.
33 MS MORGAN: I know that that’s where you’re raising, for example, what you say at
34 the time is the need for some cross-referencing across boroughs.
23
1 DR DAVIES: Yes.
2 MS MORGAN: So I obviously want to know where that goes because it’s really
3 pertinent. It was the seniors.
4 DR DAVIES: Well somehow or another that must have got fed to Lyn Cusack the
5 Assistant Director because that’s when I was firmly told off.
6 MS MORGAN: Do you know how that line of…?
7 DR DAVIES: No, so she must have – perhaps one of the other seniors told her about it.
8 Perhaps it got raised within the borough to say… And probably one of them said
9 it in a positive way, ‘Oh Liz has had a case of a… And we’ve sent children to that
10 school.’ Because some of the others did send children to that school. They were
11 very, some of the other seniors were very supportive and they wanted to know
12 more about it. So they probably raised it when they saw her and she got to know
13 and then was furious.
14 MS MORGAN: But again in terms of, I just want to be clear, in terms of ‘probably’
15 what I’m picking up from you is a sense you actually don’t know that.
16 DR DAVIES: I don’t know.
17 MS MORGAN: It’s just that somehow…
18 DR DAVIES: I just know I got told off.
19 MS MORGAN: But the meeting structure itself is what I’m interested in
20 understanding, the minutes of those meetings go to the other seniors?
21 DR DAVIES: Yes.
22 MS MORGAN: I shouldn’t understand that they’re something that go on somewhere
23 else now?
24 DR DAVIES: I doubt it, I shouldn’t think they were. It doesn’t say on those minutes, I
25 don’t think there’s no copying in to any manager.
26 MS MORGAN: No, it doesn’t. That’s one of the reasons I’m having to ask it. It
27 doesn’t.
28 DR DAVIES: No, it’s exactly as it looks. I’ll tell you that.
29 MS MORGAN: Okay. So that’s the District Seniors meeting. Then the
30 Neighbourhood Forum meeting, you’ve provided me with some of that as well
31 from I think April 1990. It’s where I think you have told me in your submission
32 you and David – Cofie or Coffi?
33 DR DAVIES: Cofie.
24
1 MS MORGAN: David Cofie and you raised anxieties or concerns that there might be a
2 sex ring, I think is what it’s called.
3 DR DAVIES: Yeah.
4 MS MORGAN: Who was at that meeting?
5 DR DAVIES: Margaret Hodge.
6 MS MORGAN: Yeah, so…
7 DR DAVIES: I don’t remember. I don’t remember. Someone from the tenants’
8 association. There would have been the other, someone from housing, someone
9 from environmental health. I can remember sitting there and I should think no
10 more than about six or seven people.
11 MS MORGAN: And that again, my focus, is that a meeting where I would expect
12 Sandy Marks to be present?
13 DR DAVIES: No, no, she wasn’t a councillor for our neighbourhood.
14 MS MORGAN: Okay.
15 DR DAVIES: She would have gone to the ones in her neighbourhood.
16 MS MORGAN: Okay. I think what I’ve had on your memory stick is what looks like a
17 partial copy of the report from that meeting, I don’t know if it’s a full copy. Is
18 there a full copy of the report that….
19 DR DAVIES: I’ve no idea.
20 MS MORGAN: …was given for that?
21 DR DAVIES: I’ve only got what I wrote and it’s very faded. But I’ve got the front
22 cover, haven’t I, saying the date on it?
23 MS MORGAN: Yes. So is what I’ve got from you what you’ve got?
24 DR DAVIES: Oh, yeah, that’s all I’ve got.
25 MS MORGAN: Okay.
26 DR DAVIES: But there would have been a whole report of the whole meeting.
27 MS MORGAN: Yes. But wherever that is, it’s not with me and that’s because…
28 DR DAVIES: I’ve not got it.
29 MS MORGAN: Okay, and again it’s the same question but I see the answer already
30 follows from what you said before, I was going to ask whether that report goes to
31 Sandy Marks as a result of that meeting.
32 DR DAVIES: I wouldn’t know. I mean… So Margaret Hodge is the councillor. What
33 would have been her position in relation to Sandy at that time? Would she take it
34 to any committee that Sandy was on? What would we expect? That an issue of
25
1 that importance, it was serious, became known to Margaret Hodge. Would it be
2 expected she would then raise that with the Chair of Social Services Committee?
3 Well, I don’t know.
4 MS MORGAN: I’m asking whether you know.
5 DR DAVIES: I’ve no idea.
6 MS MORGAN: Okay.
7 DR DAVIES: But Margaret Hodge complained to John Rea Price so again would we
8 expect that anyone else would be involved in that or it would it just be between
9 Margaret Hodge and John Rea Price? I don’t know.
10 MS MORGAN: Okay. I appreciate that for a number of things I’m asking you the
11 answer is likely to be, ‘I don’t know.’ But I don’t know you don’t know that’s
12 why I’m asking.
13 DR DAVIES: That’s fine. That’s fine. It’s complex. Complex.
14 MS MORGAN: Okay. I think I’ve asked you a lot already about what you knew about
15 the Paedophile Information Exchange at the time. But you again something you
16 [inaudible] is in your submission. One of the things that you have said is, page
17 four you say, ‘I had no knowledge at the time of the Paedophile Information
18 Exchange or how established it was in the area.’ I completely appreciate that the
19 untangling difficulties in what you’ve come to learn later and what you knew
20 then. When you were working in Islington as a social worker, did you know at all
21 there was the Paedophile Information Exchange?
22 DR DAVIES: No.
23 MS MORGAN: Okay.
24 DR DAVIES: I knew about it from the Rising Free era, the bookshop era.
25 MS MORGAN: Yes. Is that early 70s?
26 DR DAVIES: Yes, but you know we’re a long way on the, ’86. It wasn’t top of my
27 agenda, you know? I wasn’t thinking of it then.
28 MS MORGAN: Yes.
29 DR DAVIES: I hadn’t even followed the progress of it to be honest. I wasn’t in that
30 field then remember. I’d come from a mental health background. Mental health
31 was my specialism; I was a social worker for 30 years. So it wasn’t, I wasn’t – it
32 wasn’t my world like it became my world. So in ’86 onwards I wouldn’t have
33 been thinking PIE in my mind.
26
1 MS MORGAN: I think my ’86 onwards PIE itself had faded but in the earlier times
2 when you were doing a bit of work in Islington in ’73-ish. Had you heard
3 anything about it or similar groups then?
4 DR DAVIES: That’s before my bookshop era you see?
5 MS MORGAN: Yes.
6 DR DAVIES: So I wouldn’t really, no.
7 MS MORGAN: Okay.
8 DR DAVIES: I wouldn’t have been aware then.
9 MS MORGAN: And did you ever hear during the time you worked in Islington things
10 that linked Sandy Marks to PIE?
11 DR DAVIES: No.
12 MS MORGAN: What about the Fallen Angels? Did you hear about those at all?
13 DR DAVIES: No, never heard about that.
14 MS MORGAN: No, okay. Had you heard of those before the Gazette story? The
15 Fallen Angels? Specifically Fallen Angels as opposed to PIE.
16 DR DAVIES: Only connected with the story, in my more recent research I should say.
17 Only then, not before then, no.
18 MS MORGAN: And I’ve obviously read the Gazette stuff and I’ve had the material
19 that’s come from you. Did the Gazette talk to you about the – talk to you—about
20 the story before they ran it?
21 DR DAVIES: I don’t think specifically. Can I ask why that’s important?
22 MS MORGAN: I just, I just – I want to know about how the Fallen Angels thing
23 comes about actually.
24 DR DAVIES: The Fallen Angels things come about because since the work with the
25 survivors movement, and then preceding Islington Survivors Network…
26 MS MORGAN: Right, I’m with you.
27 DR DAVIES: Before that the White Flowers National Network which led us to get the
28 enquiry to have a national enquiry.
29 MS MORGAN: Yes.
30 DR DAVIES: Myself and a number of other people had been doing research, an
31 enormous amount of research, thousands of documents, looking into – because we
32 all became interested. My angle was more around Peter Wright and the
33 involvement of social work with PIE. I became very interested in that and most
34 concerned because there are people still around who obviously played a major
27
1 role in PIE and affiliated organisations. I find that extremely worrying. So that
2 was my sort of angle on it. Other people were looking at other parts and different
3 parts of the country, survivors groups and so on. So there became a sort of body
4 of knowledge that was getting shared. Some of it of course was misinformation
5 and distorted and there’s all kinds of websites that are full of nonsense. But I
6 became aware of who were the really solid researchers and really knew what they
7 were doing and what they were looking at. Some academics and various people.
8 There’s an academic in Ireland who’s done very in depth research on Morris
9 Fraser who lived in Islington so that’s a good example of who I was linking with
10 to sort of say well, ‘Tell me, I need to know, he was in our area.’ That’s part,
11 Fallen Angels was just one aspect of the whole picture really.
12 MS MORGAN: It’s quite hard for me to get a feel for if I’d been in, I’m wondering
13 about in Islington in let’s say, 1979-1984 or that type of period, it’s quite difficult
14 for me to have a feel for whether Fallen Angels was known about or around or
15 current?
16 DR DAVIES: Survivors – some survivors knew about it. Some survivors talk about
17 PIE meeting at The Hemingford Arms and there was demonstration and they
18 know the person that got arrested. There’s a whole lot of storytelling around local
19 people in Islington.
20 MS MORGAN: You just said PIE. I’m having difficulty finding the Fallen Angels bit.
21 DR DAVIES: Yes, well I’ve met survivors who have spoken about Fallen Angels so…
22 But it wasn’t you know something I knew about at all until the research.
23 MS MORGAN: Right. Okay.
24 DR DAVIES: So when you ask about the Gazette, I don’t think it’s right for me to talk
25 about my work with the media generally. I mean I work with media at all sorts of
26 levels. Gazette is one of them. You know, mainly the national media but more
27 recently local. I’m endlessly pursued by the national media and have absolutely
28 wanted to focus through Islington Survivors Network on the local media. I’ve not
29 really responded to the numbers of enquiries from the national media. Does that
30 make sense? Whereas White Flowers was more national. These issues were
31 being raised nationally at one point.
32 MS MORGAN: Yes. And the national, I understand it’s an evolution of the national
33 issues and so on and so forth.
34 DR DAVIES: Yes. That’s right.
28
1 MS MORGAN: And so one of the other things I’d actually, I was going to ask about
2 but I think you’ve just answered is again in the memory stick material, I saw that
3 you had said that over recent years you’ve become more aware of the PIE
4 activities and the role of the PIE in Islington as you see it. I think I understand
5 from what you’ve just said that that’s through the research, involvement in
6 research, is that right?
7 DR DAVIES: Yes, and research in a very broad sense, you know.
8 MS MORGAN: Yeah.
9 DR DAVIES: Some of it is solid archive work and some of it is though the many,
10 many, many people that email me and give me information from all over the
11 country and even from abroad. So it’s a constant stream of information which I as
12 an academic I suppose I disentangle and corroborate or don’t corroborate or try
13 and rank it in terms of authenticity and make sense of it all.
14 MS MORGAN: Yeah. In terms of that ranking and all authenticating, I get for
15 example the archive type work is solid, as you say. How do you go about
16 authenticating stuff that people just ring you about?
17 DR DAVIES: Well I’ve already got a large body of knowledge so I can pretty well
18 assess and certainly know when to question and be extremely careful. As
19 happened with the survivor that came forward to me, said he was an Islington
20 survivor and I knew, I interviewed him initially and I knew straightaway that his
21 account didn’t tie up with the knowledge that I had of what he was talking about.
22 So when they mention names and places I know it. You know? I know it inside
23 out now. I know I’ll still hear new things but I pretty well know it to be honest.
24 This man was, I don’t know, anyway it led to this huge court case, which was
25 pulled at the last minute in November, that the police, Suffolk police had at the
26 time, with Scotland Yard, with Northumbria, with Derby. It was huge. They
27 even went to America and spoke to people over there. It became big. So I knew.
28 I’d seen that on the horizon straightaway. He then obviously subjected me to
29 horrendous threats.
30 MS MORGAN: So…
31 DR DAVIES: So that’s just one example.
32 MS MORGAN: Yeah.
33 DR DAVIES: Sometimes I don’t, you know, you have to be extremely cautious all of
34 the time. All the time.
29
1 MS MORGAN: Until that court case, it’s, you know, wide outside my remit, but when
2 you say ‘pulled at the last minute’ I understand I assume from that that it doesn’t
3 result in a conviction of any sort?
4 DR DAVIES: No, because the police were all ready to run with it after months and
5 months of work. They were on notice from the Friday night. They were on
6 notice for the Monday morning in court. Several days had been booked then on
7 the Friday night they were told the CPS were not going to be – no reason.
8 MS MORGAN: Okay. No reason?
9 DR DAVIES: Given to them.
10 MS MORGAN: Given to them.
11 DR DAVIES: Or from them to me.
12 MS MORGAN: That’s what I was going to ask.
13 DR DAVIES: In a very sorry – they rang me to sort of apologise.
14 MS MORGAN: Yes, that was my question. Is it ‘no reason’ from the CPS to them or
15 ‘no reason’ to you?
16 DR DAVIES: No they said they didn’t know the reason at that stage and that they were
17 just wanting to let me know and apologise to me.
18 MS MORGAN: And we’re on…
19 DR DAVIES: So that’s a bit off track but it’s to let you know how I… There’s the
20 factual evidential you know, route and then there’s also my well-honed instinct by
21 this stage of things.
22 MS MORGAN: Yes. And I have seen obviously what’s reported in the Gazette in
23 relation to Sandy Marks. And I’ve had from the Gazette the material that they
24 have.
25 DR DAVIES: Good.
26 MS MORGAN: Have you personally encountered anything else which has led you to
27 link Sandy Marks to Fallen Angels, other than the stuff that has been published in
28 the Gazette?
29 DR DAVIES: Well obviously you know Charlotte Russell. You’ll be speaking to her.
30 She’s a researcher. She’s the person who has the material.
31 MS MORGAN: That’s why I’m asking you.
32 DR DAVIES: The in depth knowledge of it all. I’m party to everything but I haven’t
33 the time or space to interrogate it in the way that she is doing.
34 MS MORGAN: I see. So are you Charlotte working together?
30
1 DR DAVIES: Yes, I think it’s quite reasonable to say we are.
2 MS MORGAN: Yes. Okay.
3 DR DAVIES: We’ve been quite open about that. She’s a, you know, lawyer
4 background and a researcher background. She has skills that I don’t have.
5 MS MORGAN: I’ve read that she’s a PhD student.
6 DR DAVIES: Now, yes.
7 MS MORGAN: Not your PhD student? You’re not supervising her?
8 DR DAVIES: No, no, I don’t supervise anybody. I’m not teaching in any sense. I
9 don’t teach at all now. I used to do.
10 MS MORGAN: Do you miss it?
11 DR DAVIES: Miss it? No because I’m fulltime on this and I need to do this. This is
12 something that needs to be done and sorted. You know, I’m Emeritus. I’ve got
13 all the resources at my fingertips and I’m writing books. You know, I’m writing
14 at the moment so my academic work sort of… But this is you know I see this as,
15 there’s an academic side to this really, a rigour. I hope. There has to be a rigour
16 to it because it’s got to be done properly. With the White Flowers and what
17 happened in that movement, you know, it was – I witnessed infiltration and a
18 massive level of misinformation which obviously led to all the Operation
19 Midland. The whole… That whole aspect of what happened and this person that
20 was attacked. He was one of those three people that spoke about Dolphin Square
21 and all that. So I was right in the thick of all that. I’m really aware of how fragile
22 this work is really and how vulnerable it is because there’s so many interests to be
23 protected. So I’m really, really very rigorous in what I’m doing. I think I have to
24 be. I haven’t got a team around me. I haven’t got any support around me. I’m
25 not in a professional role. It’s not like when I worked as part of teams and… It’s
26 a very different world now.
27 MS MORGAN: I understand that your focus is wider than mine but do I understand
28 from the conversation we’ve just had that if I want to be looking for material
29 linking Sandy Marks Fallen Angels it’s Charlotte Russell I need to ask about that
30 and you can’t add anything to what she might know.
31 DR DAVIES: I certainly wouldn’t have anything extra.
32 MS MORGAN: Okay.
33 DR DAVIES: Okay? If there’s stuff I had that she didn’t have I would’ve given it to
34 her as part of her – she’s doing that bit. Let’s just say that.
31
1 MS MORGAN: So there’s nothing, what I’m bound to ask you is can you add anything
2 to what I can get from Charlotte Russell?
3 DR DAVIES: No, absolutely not.
4 MS MORGAN: One thing I did want to ask you about the Gazette publication, and in
5 particular the photograph that was published which they say is the young Sandy
6 Marks. I don’t know how they go about identifying that as the young Sandy
7 Marks. I completely understand from their interviews that they take it to her and
8 they show it to her. But I missed the link which I can’t find in researching
9 through at the moment was how in the first place the Gazette thinks it’s her and
10 who identifies that to her. Do you know that?
11 DR DAVIES: I mean I knew her in that era but I don’t remember if that image is her or
12 not.
13 MS MORGAN: Right. Yeah.
14 DR DAVIES: You’d have to ask Charlotte that exactly. But there may be other
15 pictures of her at that time.
16 MS MORGAN: Yes.
17 DR DAVIES: I would have thought she could provide something. The best thing is
18 from her, isn’t it? Sandy would be – she must have pictures or other of her. I
19 know there’s some nearer that time. I’ve got some going back to the 80s and
20 things but… So many people knew her at that time. I don’t think that could be an
21 issue.
22 MS MORGAN: I understand what you say about your dealings with the press and not
23 wanting to go into those. Did the Gazette ask you if that was a photograph of her?
24 DR DAVIES: I’m not going to, you know, the journalists protect their sources and I
25 don’t think it’s appropriate to ask me about my interactions.
26 MS MORGAN: Well I’m asking you but I respect that you’re not going to answer it.
27 DR DAVIES: No, I wouldn’t on principle I wouldn’t answer about anything to do with
28 me and the newspaper source or, you know… I mean if I’m in the paper and a big
29 picture talking about the police and I’m quoted, then you’ve got that, you know
30 that I’m happy to say that was me and I did say that. But…
31 MS MORGAN: I’m asking you specifically about the photograph and I understand
32 from your answer that you’re not prepared to answer that.
33 DR DAVIES: They can answer it.
32
1 MS MORGAN: May I – I want to catch up with my own notes. So Fallen Angels I’ve
2 asked you about. Can I just step back in time a little to the White report? I don’t
3 understand how the off the record interviewing of you came about from that. Can
4 you help me with that at all?
5 DR DAVIES: I wish I could. I’ve tried to think what led to that. It’s very difficult to
6 remember. He asked me. He definitely asked me if I would speak to him off
7 record.
8 MS MORGAN: What did it mean ‘off record’?
9 DR DAVIES: Well I went to Oxford and I was interviewed by him and Kate.
10 MS MORGAN: See all of that to me sounds fairly on record. But it’s quite obvious
11 from what you’ve said to me that that’s not what it was. So…
12 DR DAVIES: It definitely wasn’t and obviously I’m not… He doesn’t refer to me at all
13 in the inquiry, in his report. He does refer about me but nothing as a result of
14 speaking with me, yes? So he refers to a social worker.
15 MS MORGAN: I don’t know because I don’t know what you said.
16 DR DAVIES: Well he refers a lot to a social worker that said ‘this, that’ and that’s me
17 at the time. You know? I’m very happy to tell you which bits refer to me.
18 Everything was discredited. Absolutely everything. But that didn’t derive from
19 the interview. The memory is of him saying to me, ‘Just tell us, is it corruption or
20 is it incompetence?’. I remember thinking, you know, what are you talking
21 about? I had no really – I was thrown by that. So that’s probably way I
22 remember it.
23 MS MORGAN: But you went to Oxford to talk to both him and Kate Hart together
24 or…?
25 DR DAVIES: Yes, together. I’ve still got a letter from him. Did I enclose that? It
26 might have seemed so petty.
27 MS MORGAN: I also can’t remember.
28 DR DAVIES: Don’t worry, you can happily have it but it’s just saying that he will pay
29 my train fare. I said that I hadn’t had my expenses. So it proves…
30 MS MORGAN: Actually I think, I haven’t seen the actual letter although it may be that
31 I actually did but I think I’ve seen you saying, ‘And I’ve got the letter.’
32 DR DAVIES: I hang on to that because it convinces me I did go.
33 MS MORGAN: Yes.
33
1 DR DAVIES: I definitely went there and I remember going there. But I don’t
2 remember a lot more about it. They were very heady times you know? I was
3 under all sorts of threats and you know, I was in a very difficult position at that
4 time.
5 MS MORGAN: One of the ways in which I was sort of struggling to understand it
6 when I was reading about it, to be perfectly frank, is I couldn’t really make a
7 sense of it from either side. I couldn’t make sense of why he might have asked
8 you to talk to him off the record of why you would have agreed. So I couldn’t, I
9 couldn’t really see how it was helpful to anyone. And I wanted to ask…
10 [Crosstalk]
11 DR DAVIES: Okay. I think I agreed because I was frightened. By that stage I was
12 really frightened.
13 MS MORGAN: Of what?
14 DR DAVIES: Well there’d been death threats by The Evening Standard. My address
15 was flagged; my children were flagged with the police. I was having to monitor
16 them going to and from school. They were at the age where they were getting a
17 bit independent. It was a really difficult time. So I, looking back, I was quite
18 terrified. I didn’t know what to expect of this inquiry but then I was urged that,
19 you know, Ian White was a good person and that I could talk to him.
20 MS MORGAN: Urged by?
21 DR DAVIES: I don’t remember… I remember Scotland Yard telling me not to trust
22 him but I think that came later. I think they heard something later on.
23 MS MORGAN: But that sounds like the reverse.
24 DR DAVIES: That was the opposite, yes, that was later on I think. When I’d already
25 seen him. I think at the stage of seeing him I was getting the word that ‘No, he’s
26 all right.’ You know, ‘He’s okay. You should go see him.’ But you see I’d
27 already been to see McAndrew and Cassan and Jo Tunnard again. Not officially.
28 That’s another not official because she’d been turfed off the enquiry and there
29 was a lot of publicity about. She was very unhappy. She lived near me and I
30 went to her house. She spoke to me. So that’s another query, why did I do that?
31 Because again it was the feeling with her was she’s a good person and they’ve
32 thrown her off, so you know, maybe you should go and talk to her.
33 MS MORGAN: It’s hard for me to understand when you’re saying, ‘The feeling
34 was…’ Who are we talking about here?
34
1 DR DAVIES: I can’t remember. It would have perhaps been through the journalists
2 hearing things at that time or… I don’t know.
3 MS MORGAN: That’s way back in the Eileen Fairweather days?
4 DR DAVIES: That would have been Eileen. That would have been Eileen. When was
5 I first in touch with Eileen via the police? That would have been in the early 90s.
6 Yeah, that would have been because the articles came out in October didn’t they?
7 After about four or five months of working with Eileen so… That’s the
8 timeframe.
9 MS MORGAN: The submissions made to the independent management review and the
10 notes of our interviews, second interview I think with McAndrew and Cassan,
11 those were all things that are on your memory stick that I’ve looked at. None of
12 those as far as I could see make any mention at all of Sandy Marks.
13 DR DAVIES: No, the only thing is the letter, which closes my submission. But
14 attached, no, the submission was a summary of a statement of 100 pages. I
15 presume you haven’t found that?
16 MS MORGAN: I’ve not actually.
17 DR DAVIES: My hope was you’d find that somewhere and I’d get a copy because I
18 don’t have a copy.
19 MS MORGAN: Yes, again, more curiosity than anything else frankly. Nothing I see
20 about how you collate material for yourself helps me understand how you didn’t
21 have a copy of your own statement. I know…
22 [Crosstalk]
23 DR DAVIES: It was over years and years and years. There were other lawyers;
24 Demetrius Panton had lawyers involved at one point. I honestly don’t remember
25 what happened to it.
26 MS MORGAN: I just thought it was slightly odd that you didn’t have your own
27 personal copy given…
28 [Crosstalk]
29 DR DAVIES: Well I would’ve had, of course I had, and the police had a copy. But I
30 mean I’m in touch with Superintendent Hames who has now retired and he’s
31 searched but he’s got no copy of it. He tried… I did Freedom of Information to
32 the Met Police, nothing there. It went to Department of Health, nothing there.
33 Bags were destroyed, everything, my lawyer – I had it with a lawyer, what should
34 be safer than that? And he lost everything in 2003. Eileen Fairweather, what bit
35
1 she’d of had of it, she lost it. You know? So, you know, this has been a long
2 story. But I remember every bit of it. That wasn’t the main loss; the main loss
3 was my whole archive of evidence which was, it would have filled a quarter of
4 this room. It was beautifully organised. So what I was left with was my original
5 notebooks and things like that, which I hadn’t gotten rid of. So now I’ve had to
6 recompile things from the beginning onwards.
7 MS MORGAN: Right. In what I have been able to see, I haven’t seen Sandy Marks
8 featuring in the submissions you gave to anyone nor the interviews you gave to
9 anyone.
10 DR DAVIES: No. She wouldn’t have.
11 MS MORGAN: Okay. That’s what I wanted to ask you, whether what I was seeing
12 was a fair representation.
13 DR DAVIES: Absolutely. Yeah.
14 MS MORGAN: Okay.
15 DR DAVIES: So it wouldn’t have probably come up with Ian White either.
16 MS MORGAN: They are my next…
17 DR DAVIES: Unless he’s got an archive somewhere of all his interviews. I don’t
18 think he interviewed many people.
19 MS MORGAN: That’s what I was going to ask you next because I haven’t seen Sandy
20 Marks featuring anywhere else. I was going to ask you whether you are able to
21 remember yourself whatever the situation was that led to the off the record
22 conversation with Ian White and Kate Hart, whether Sandy Marks came up there
23 either. You’ve provided me with the answer before I asked the question.
24 DR DAVIES: Yeah, I mean I wasn’t party to who Ian interviewed. I’ve never seen the
25 appendix with the 32 names. I’ve only met people who said they were on it.
26 MS MORGAN: Okay, right.
27 DR DAVIES: I think The Standard saw it but it never came to me at that time.
28 MS MORGAN: Well, most things I will probably be able to trace through to a degree.
29 By definition the one thing I couldn’t trace through and find out if it was
30 mentioned was the off the record conversation you had with him because of it
31 being off the record. As a matter of generally having a grip of it, can you
32 remember what sort of length of conversation it was when you went to Oxford?
33 DR DAVIES: Long. It must have been at least a two or three hour meeting because I
34 remember the time of day I suppose.
36
1 MS MORGAN: I’m just trying to put it, you probably saw me looking at the clock, I
2 was just thinking we’ve been here since sort of around about noon and it’s 20 past
3 one.
4 DR DAVIES: Yeah, it was longer than this. I’ll tell you how I know. I had a nephew
5 at Oxford University and I went to see him after and that was about tea time.
6 MS MORGAN: Okay.
7 DR DAVIES: So I know I was still there late in the afternoon. I’m sure that – I mean
8 the memory plays tricks doesn’t it but I remember coming back late. Then I went
9 on to see him.
10 MS MORGAN: So for all the informal off the record – perhaps informal is my word,
11 certainly off the record, quite a sizeable chunk of time?
12 DR DAVIES: Yes. It definitely was. At the time I would have felt relieved, I would
13 have thought, ‘Well that’s good. He listened. I’m glad I did this.’ You know, I
14 don’t remember feeling that was a waste of time or I was being hoodwinked or
15 anything. No, I took it as…I took they were sincere and that was the best way of
16 doing it at the time. I just was remembering that obviously I was in the thick of
17 all sorts at the time and a number of people were telling me how they’d also been
18 severely threatened. One residential worker told me he’d been threatened with
19 having his legs broken. You know, there was a lot of – the whole atmosphere was
20 of fear.
21 MS MORGAN: Threatened in relation to speaking to White or…?
22 DR DAVIES: No, no.
23 MS MORGAN: Threatened in other ways.
24 DR DAVIES: Just generally he was telling us things that had been going on in one of
25 the homes. Then he experienced this very severe threat. That was by no means
26 the only thing. There was stuff on Neville Mighty, where he was arrested by
27 police in Islington and kept in a cell overnight and questioned about what he knew
28 about Islington homes, you know. He was – he suffered very severely. I’m trying
29 to just give you that context. There was a – we were right to be afraid. There was
30 a lot going on at the time.
31 MS MORGAN: It still doesn’t help me understand, and I don’t think you can either,
32 the other end of that actually. It is difficult for me to understand why Ian White
33 wanted to talk to you off the record.
34 DR DAVIES: I absolutely…
37
1 MS MORGAN: No understanding of that end of it?
2 DR DAVIES: Looking back it was crazy and totally inappropriate. I can’t answer that.
3 MS MORGAN: No, I wouldn’t expect you to be able to I was just…
4 DR DAVIES: Kate Hart might be remember if she’s around. I couldn’t trace her. I
5 tried.
6 MS MORGAN: Okay. Well I, a waste of both of our times me asking you questions I
7 can’t even expect you to answer. This is another bit of your submission which is
8 sort of outside my terms of reference but I wanted to understand what it meant
9 more than anything else. It’s the part that you talk about at 8.3 and I couldn’t
10 really, I couldn’t really follow it so I thought I’d just ask you. So 8.3 is where
11 you say, ‘Superintendent Michael Hames taught me how to refer information to
12 his team. And I still have problem with my reports, which are a rather chaotic
13 series of typed notes. Some of the information in these is unreliable yet much of
14 it has later been confirmed. I recently refused to give it to police for professional
15 reasons because unless they worked with me in the analysis of the contents.
16 Misinterpretation could lead to poor decision-making.’ Then you go on to talk
17 about something else about Operation Winter Key. You say, ‘I asked with respect
18 as a co-professional Operation Winter Key worked with me in 2017 for one
19 afternoon charting up names of abusers. We listed 26 names as the basis for
20 discussing then nothing more happens. Suffice it to say not all the alleged and
21 known abusers are dead. I don’t know if any of the abusers are alive despite the
22 many efforts to establish the facts prior to a survivor coming forward to give
23 evidence. Police recently informed me that a manager of Grove Avenue
24 Children’s Home died in ’99. I don’t understand why police can’t check the facts
25 before taking survivor’s statements. I and others have continued reporting this
26 abuser to police over the last 18 years so it would seem the checks were not made
27 throughout all that time.’
28 I read the paragraph just because I remembered halfway through we
29 were recording. The bit I was interested in and frankly didn’t understand – I’ve
30 written myself in the margin ‘what’s it mean’ – is about your refusing to give it to
31 police for professional reasons because unless they worked with me and in
32 analysis of the content, misinterpretation could lead to poor decision-making.
33 What does that mean?
38
1 DR DAVIES: I think it would be professionally irresponsible for me to hand over
2 documents to police, which are very open to misinterpretation. I’m still a
3 registered social worker. So I would expect to work together with them and to go
4 through them, the notes, and explain. So these original notes to Superintendent
5 Hames, which are just a stream of information as it came in at the time.
6 MS MORGAN: Oh, I see, yeah.
7 DR DAVIES: They had to be you know hand delivered to Scotland Yard and all the
8 rest of it.
9 MS MORGAN: So it’s not like what I would have understood in slightly older days
10 than now as a social worker’s running record. It’s not that?
11 DR DAVIES: No. No. He… It was intelligence reports. So as – I was in the middle
12 of doing all this work and as I heard something or… And the notes about Vivian
13 Loki and [Tony Brigg?] are in there. You know as a good example. Someone
14 said there was a boy in the garage. So it’s all listed in you know, just non-stop
15 over pages and pages of it. He told me things like you need middle names and
16 dates of birth and all that kind of… He said, ‘This is what we need and we need it
17 this way.’ And that’s what I did.
18 MS MORGAN: Is the purpose of what he was teaching you as far as I understand it, to
19 be sure that you knew which people you were talking about when you were
20 making recordings of it?
21 DR DAVIES: No, he was Scotland Yard and the ritual abuse investigation team and
22 heading up the public allegations team so the information was fed into his
23 systems.
24 MS MORGAN: Sorry, when I say ‘you’ so that one would know, because you were
25 making notes of middle names and – so one would be able to identify which
26 people you were talking about from your recordings.
27 DR DAVIES: Yes, for accuracy.
28 MS MORGAN: I see.
29 DR DAVIES: Where I knew it. But he also wanted aliases and nicknames and all the
30 rest of it.
31 MS MORGAN: Of course.
32 DR DAVIES: It was an intelligence level that I was working just with him. As fate
33 had it I kept all those notes so they didn’t vanish when everything else vanished.
39
1 MS MORGAN: So were you working just with him? What’s the sort of, for want of a
2 better word, what’s the probity of that arrangement? Is it that you work with him
3 in the same way that, I don’t mean this offensively but in the same way a
4 policeman might work with an informer? Is it that sort of arrangement or what?
5 DR DAVIES: No, I was classified as an A1 informer.
6 MS MORGAN: Okay. So not far off the mark.
7 DR DAVIES: Not far off the mark in that sense but no, I was as a professional social
8 worker which he cleared with Herbert Laming at the time so that I was fully
9 professionally, it was approved that this was appropriate work for me to be doing
10 at this level with the police at that time.
11 MS MORGAN: Okay. So…
12 [Crosstalk]
13 MS MORGAN: So would that mean that you were professionally insured for example
14 for it? I was just wondering what the professional link meant in that? If you’re
15 working…
16 DR DAVIES: It’s the protection of children.
17 MS MORGAN: No, no… What I mean is in terms of your own status working as a
18 professional social worker as opposed to a different sort of informer of the police,
19 how does the professional channel work? Where I’m familiar with social workers
20 and policemen working together, it usually is men still when I’m dealing with
21 them is that there’s a, let’s say, the nominated child protection or allocated social
22 worker in a case who works with the police in the modern day parlance of
23 working together. This obviously predates that.
24 DR DAVIES: No, we were still working together then.
25 MS MORGAN: Well, but not on behalf of the local authority? That’s the bit I’m
26 trying to work out.
27 DR DAVIES: Okay, okay, but this developed because the Islington – the police were
28 not able to work with Islington authority.
29 MS MORGAN: Yes, that’s what I’m trying to understand.
30 DR DAVIES: So there were certain investigations going on nationally where police
31 teams needed to have information about particular cases in Islington.
32 MS MORGAN: Yes, that’s why I thought it might be work done as an informer. So
33 I’m trying to understand…
40
1 DR DAVIES: No, it was a professional social worker. Remember I was in Harrow at
2 that time as a Child Protection Manager.
3 MS MORGAN: Okay.
4 DR DAVIES: So I had a lot of professional status.
5 MS MORGAN: Okay.
6 DR DAVIES: Michael Hames team, he would say, ‘I’ve got two officers going to
7 Hertford and Worcester. There’s a big case there and Islington is part. So will
8 you go and assist them with what you’ve told me about that person?’
9 MS MORGAN: Okay. I see.
10 DR DAVIES: So that was how that worked.
11 MS MORGAN: And Harrow would release you to do that?
12 DR DAVIES: Yes, Harrow would release me to do that. Harrow knew. I was in the
13 Old Bailey while I was at Harrow on an Islington case. It was like that. That case
14 was Sussex police and I was asked to meet with them and assist them with their
15 investigations around one of the main Islington perpetrators who had been taken
16 to the Old Bailey. So Islington police worked with me 100% very well. The
17 Islington police worked with the obscene publications team 100% well. So a lot
18 of information was going from the police in Islington to the police in Scotland
19 Yard. The police in Islington trusted me and respected my work and they knew
20 the dynamics that were going on in Islington at the time and where they were
21 blocked and where they couldn’t pursue enquiries. Where they were not getting
22 files they asked for. Where they weren’t getting any HR background they needed,
23 all those sorts of things. So I was asked to be as helpful as I could be.
24 MS MORGAN: So it sounds like you and the police have reached at least temporarily
25 the end of the road on this if you are not handing them your material.
26 DR DAVIES: No, it’s not that I’m, you know… How can I explain it? Winter Key had
27 a very restricted remit. They are the team, the Met Police response to IICSA. I
28 pulled out of IICSA completely. I was a core participant [inaudible]. So I pulled
29 out of that. Anyway, so I’m not… I’m… They will only deal with abuse in
30 London and sexual abuse.
31 MS MORGAN: Winter Key? Yeah.
32 DR DAVIES: Winter Key. And they will only work at a non-intelligence level. So the
33 way I’ve worked with police over the years was out the window. They don’t want
34 any background. They don’t want any information I have. They don’t want
41
1 anything from the 90s that matches with what I know in 2018s. So if a survivor
2 tells me something about someone that I’ve got documents about from the 90s
3 they don’t want them.
4 MS MORGAN: Okay.
5 DR DAVIES: All right? They say, ‘Bring us the victim and we’ll do an interview and
6 we’ll take it forward if we can.’ Right? If it’s sexual if it’s London. Hardly any
7 of the 70s Islington survivors are just sexual or just London or, you know, they
8 don’t fit that. So all the others had nowhere to go. I’d taken about seven people
9 to them. I’ve sat in on what they call an introductory interview which is just…
10 MS MORGAN: Is that as an appropriate adult or in some other…
11 DR DAVIES: No, no, no… No. Just because they wouldn’t be there if I wasn’t there.
12 I’m… I’m the person between the survivor and the police doing just an interview
13 discussing options, at that level, introductory interview. What I didn’t expect was
14 the introductory interview is more or less a full on interview now.
15 MS MORGAN: Like what I would recognise as an ABE interview?
16 DR DAVIES: What we’d call ABE or VRI. But they take you through free narratives.
17 I trained police for 15 years in ABEs. I’ve written books on it and everything. So
18 it’s not what I’d call an introductory interview. So by the time the survivor’s
19 poured out their free narrative, and they do it in my room, you know, they’re
20 confortable. The police then say, ‘Aha, well, from what you said there’s one
21 sexual crime and it happened outside London so we’ll have to refer that to some
22 other area and the police will them contact you.’ They’re saying, ‘Well, I don’t
23 want to talk to anyone else. I thought I was talking to you.’ Or, ‘We’ll have to do
24 a VRI interview and that will be at Stratford.’ Some of them never, don’t even
25 know where Stratford is. It’s not worked very well at all and some of them have
26 spoken about all sorts of other forms of abuse and they’re not interested in those
27 forms of abuse. So it’s a completely different way of working. Now they said to
28 me that they would…
29 MS MORGAN: Sorry ‘they’ Winter Key?
30 DR DAVIES: Winter Key would meet me and they needed to know how many abusers
31 I knew about. I said this could take days. But I endlessly reported through all the
32 years I’ve been to Furnbridge[?] and Fairbank and all the… I went to the National
33 Crime Agency and CEOP and you name it. So it’s not for wanting for reporting.
34 I gave the Michael Hames documents to the National Crime Agency.
42
1 MS MORGAN: Is that the same ones?
2 DR DAVIES: A couple of years ago. Yes.
3 MS MORGAN: Right, okay.
4 DR DAVIES: I think around 2016 or something. And… But there’s no concept of
5 working together with me on it. I’m really fearful because some people I
6 suspected at that time I believe now to be completely innocent.
7 MS MORGAN: Okay.
8 DR DAVIES: And some people – and two people have never been able to work with
9 children because they were labelled paedophiles and I don’t think they were.
10 Even one of The Evening Standard people exposed in The Evening Standard I
11 strongly believe now may well, let me phrase it very carefully, may well have
12 been completely innocent. And misinformation was put out in The Standard so
13 who informed The Standard? You know, you’ve got to look at the whole picture
14 there. But I think he was a major distraction from other people. So it’s all very
15 complex and very horrible. I didn’t want them reading about this person and
16 putting him on their list and believing it. So, there was…
17 MS MORGAN: Because you believe that person shouldn’t be?
18 DR DAVIES: Since in all these years I’ve learnt a lot more and I would want to be in
19 discussion with police and say, ‘Look at this paragraph. I now know this about
20 this person.’ I’ve interviewed him, here’s the record of my interviews with him in
21 recent times.’
22 MS MORGAN: Okay. This is probably the last thing I want to ask you about because
23 it’s way outside what I’m looking at but do you have any worries about
24 conclusions you’ve reached being fed in to Winter Key rather than having Winter
25 Key reach their own conclusions on the material you give them?
26 DR DAVIES: I haven’t given them – they don’t want the material.
27 MS MORGAN: I know you haven’t. Yeah.
28 DR DAVIES: They just want the survivor.
29 MS MORGAN: Right, okay.
30 DR DAVIES: That’s not how I’d… I’m used to strategy meetings. I’m used to before
31 you interview someone, it’s in all the policy documents, you would have a
32 strategy meeting, as social workers, as police and you would decide whether or
33 not you’re going to progress to what was the ABE. They don’t do that anymore.
34 They say, ‘We don’t do strategy meetings anymore.’ I said, ‘Well, I would come
43
1 and I would present everything I know to you and then I would leave and then
2 you can make your decisions.’ I could be at it because I’m fully professional and
3 entitled to be there but if you’d prefer it that way I’d be very happy to come and
4 give you everything and then you professionals make the decision. They don’t do
5 that. So when I refer someone who I believe is currently putting children at risk
6 and I have a long list of those, then it goes to the LADO and the LADO says, ‘Oh,
7 we haven’t got any record of them ever working in Islington. There’s no pension
8 records, no this, no that, so we can’t do anything.’ I say, ‘Yes, you can. You can
9 hold a strategy meeting. Then I can tell you in a formal forum, statutory forum
10 everything I know and I can share it with you for the current protection of
11 children.’ Don’t do it. So it’s not happening. So there are numerous people out
12 there. In the past we would’ve established first whether the person is alive or
13 dead, whether we can identify where they are now and so on. They don’t do that.
14 They interview. So I’ve sat with survivors pouring out their stories and then
15 being told later on, perhaps four months later, ‘Oh the person is dead.’ That, to
16 me, is the height of cruelty and bad practice.
17 MS MORGAN: So that’s a problem as you see it, I think, with the Winter Key remit?
18 DR DAVIES: Yes, absolutely.
19 MS MORGAN: Okay. I had asked you about that actually to be entirely frank because
20 I didn’t understand what it meant.
21 DR DAVIES: Do you understand now?
22 MS MORGAN: I do understand now but it makes me realise that actually the thing
23 that, and I’d asked you because I didn’t understand it rather than because I
24 thought it was relevant to my terms of reference. But I have realised that what I
25 should ask you about it is whether in the information that you are, sort of at an
26 impasse with Winter Key on, whether that contains Sandy Marks’ name?
27 DR DAVIES: No, no connection whatsoever.
28 MS MORGAN: Okay, thank you.
29 DR DAVIES: You know the issue is for me… The issue for me with Sandy Marks is
30 very clear. It’s that all the way through and her comments, she denied organised
31 abuse. All the way through in enquiries that she was – you will establish much
32 better than I can her role in commissioning or getting those enquires to happen.
33 Those enquiries completely denied all allegations of any organised abuse or a
34 network of abusers. At the same time, I was working at very senior level with
44
1 police investigating organised crime against children. So at the very time when
2 Ian White says Scotland Yard said there was no evidence of networks – at that
3 very same time I was working with that very same police team but that would be
4 the Press Office and I was with the police team investigating all over the country,
5 North Wales, Sussex, Hereford and so on. So I know that it was real and I know
6 that it existed and I know that it was denied. What she knew about it I don’t
7 know but at the very least I think she should be questioned about that. That’s my
8 interest is to say to you, I’ve got so much documentation which I wasn’t able to
9 give you which proves that there were networks of abuse. Until there’s a proper
10 investigation I’m stuck with that documentation. I’ve no way of doing anything
11 about it other than referring to it in the most general terms. The most serious is
12 the ritual abuse and the murders. I was informed about multiple murders of
13 children and I’ve never been able to progress that at all. So you know this is so
14 serious that I can’t just let it go. It’s not just about paedophiles and what they do
15 and just getting a few of them convicted. That’s simple. I’ve done that so many
16 times but this, this – what went on here has been blocked and denied at such a
17 level. I’m determined to see it through. So when survivors are asking to come
18 and see you, they have the direct evidence of organised abuse of children
19 networks – networks of abusers. I’m a bit worried that if they’re out of your
20 timeframe or the Sandy Marks timeframe that you might miss some of the
21 information they have that is so crucial to this.
22 MS MORGAN: Did you, off the record, in the off the record discussion with Ian
23 White, did you talk to him about the ritual abuse?
24 DR DAVIES: Yes. Yes because he says in his report there was no evidence.
25 MS MORGAN: Yeah. Well I know what he says in his report.
26 DR DAVIES: Oh, sorry.
27 MS MORGAN: I was trying to see if you spoke to him about this.
28 DR DAVIES: Yes, of course, no I mean I would have gone through and I’m quite sure
29 I went through all the key cases. You know the Old Bailey case that was huge,
30 the ritual abuse case, the Hot House. That’s why I put it in here. I tried to put in
31 the chunks. It is manageable. There were sections to it although they overlapped.
32 And yes, there was a foster parent that I reported who was one of the sisters
33 involved in the family network, which I explained in the report to you. She’s got
34 an OBE now; she’s fostered over 100 children over the years. And I did a very
45
1 lengthy report on that case and I gave it to the LADO. Nobody has once spoken
2 to me about that. Not one person has asked me about that report. I can’t think of
3 anything more serious that I’ve ever dealt with in my whole career. So what is
4 that about? What on earth is that about? It’s frightening. And you know the
5 LADO says, ‘We’ve done a risk assessment of her and there’s been no
6 complaints.’ Of course there wouldn’t be any complaints. That wasn’t what it
7 was about. So no one’s going back over the evidence.
8 MS MORGAN: Okay.
9 DR DAVIES: And National Crime Agency said they put all that on their systems.
10 Then Winter Key say there’s absolutely nothing on their systems. When I saw
11 Winter Key I said, ‘But I only saw in 2016 and they said they put it all on the
12 system so just go and check this name out.’ They say, ‘Absolutely nothing is on
13 there.’
14 MS MORGAN: Okay. I was just looking back at my own structure and thoughts. In
15 relation, and I’m not ignoring again that I understand your focus is wider than my
16 focus but in relation to what you’re able to tell me Sandy Marks knew of
17 organised abuse. Am I right in understanding you’re saying to me it’s what you
18 think she ought to have known rather than direct information of what you say she
19 personally knew?
20 DR DAVIES: Yeah, there’s a disconnect. Is that the right word? Between her work
21 on the Children’s Regional Committee and I went to COCAN[?] meetings, I think
22 I said that didn’t I?
23 MS MORGAN: Yep.
24 DR DAVIES: I think Michael Hames got me involved but I was also involved through
25 Harrow. Harrow had just had the Cussolil[?] enquiry and were very experienced
26 in investigating organised abuse on a big scale. You know I was running courses
27 there on organised abuse. Michael Hames taught organised abuse with me, I
28 co-trained with him, a lot of officers, Scotland Yard and all over the place. So
29 you know we were like top of the tree at that time in this field in that sense.
30 Harrow was brilliant for me because it had all this current experience of it. So
31 that COCAN had got all the information from the Brent network which was one
32 of the early exposés of organised abuse of children in London. There were links
33 there with some Islington people. I didn’t know that at the time. So that led
34 Sandy Marks as chair of that committee to set up a group, a specialist group,
46
1 which was COCAN which I went to quite a few meetings also to write a report
2 and I’ve now seen that report. So she had the state of the art knowledge at the
3 time of this subject. They were a very experienced group. I was sitting in that
4 group when the news came of Peter Wright being arrested. They were all
5 shocked because they’d all known him. But you know there were some – they
6 were really, the head of Barnardo’s, the head of the Children’s Society, they were
7 all on this COCAN reporting to Sandy Marks. It all went to her. That’s all
8 documented. I haven’t been able to find the COCAN minutes. I’ve searched
9 every archive. I can’t find where they’re archived.
10 MS MORGAN: I think I’ve reached the end of what I wanted to ask you about. As I
11 say the submission had already answered a number of questions that I had from
12 reading the material. That’s why I said to you I was reading and putting it
13 together with it because I was able to mentally, rather than on the page, strike off
14 a number of things that I wanted to ask you about. What I really wanted to have
15 was an understanding of the extent to which what you were telling me fitted with
16 the remit of what I wanted to know and where I could trace a line through that.
17 It’s also been quite useful for me to understand the – on the ground I’d seen the
18 working of the 24 neighbourhood office decentralisation which at the other end of
19 that thought I’d wanted to understand from what it looks like on paper as a
20 structure and it’s useful to put those things together as actually they do match up.
21 But you can’t really visualise it without talking to somebody who was there.
22 I think the only other thing that was in my head that I couldn’t quite
23 follow is what’s led you to, I don’t know if you give back core participant status
24 or what but as you describe it, ‘pulling out’ of it. What’s brought you to that?
25 DR DAVIES: The approach to survivors. I couldn’t collude with the hearings. I went
26 to some of the hearings from White Flowers and we were stuck at the back and
27 the way we were treated was appalling. We tried – we had meetings with the
28 lawyers and with our lawyers. I thought, ‘No, this isn’t working at all for us.’ Of
29 course Shirley Oaks pulled out shortly after that. Then, or did they pull out first, I
30 can’t remember? I never was – Islington has never been part of IICSA at all.
31 When it was set up it was supposed to be for organised and institutional child
32 abuse. It got completely transformed into sexual abuse in a broad sense and only
33 sexual abuse. Not just in institutions and organisations. So the intention of those
34 of us who campaigned and we had those meetings at the Houses of Parliament.
47
1 MS MORGAN: This is pre the initial set up when it was going to be about [inaudible]?
2 DR DAVIES: Yes. It was us that got it through basically, particularly through these
3 massive meetings at the Houses of Parliament, hundreds of people. Survivors
4 getting the microphone three minutes each, one after the other, for hours from all
5 over the country. They were big, important meetings. It was good development
6 and it felt it was right and proper at the time but the enquiry was set up in a way
7 we hadn’t ever wanted it to be. We never wanted it to be all sexual abuse.
8 Because there’s been plenty of serious case reviews and all sorts of enquiries and
9 documentation about family abuse sexually. This was specifically around
10 organised and institution abuse that had been so neglected in the past and all the
11 links at high level and powerful institutions and so on. So that’s – the enquiry
12 turned into something we hadn’t wanted. It was diluted. It was very diluted.
13 Then some of the main people we’d been involved with, like [May Pack?] they
14 sequestered – is that the word? – they took some of those people and started
15 paying them to be an advisory group of survivors. Some of those people worried
16 us that were being brought on board as spokespeople and they’re being paid
17 and… That, I was really not happy about that process and what happened then at
18 numerous meetings, and the role of the Home Office [inaudible] you know, the
19 role of the Home Office in it all. It was so destructive.
20 MS MORGAN: Right.
21 DR DAVIES: It wasn’t the enquiry we wanted it to be and I knew it could never be
22 that enquiry so I thought the best thing is focus on Islington but I’ll come back to
23 Islington, do the grassroots and build this case up as I know it needs to be built
24 up. I don’t ever want it to be part of the enquiry because there’s gagging clauses
25 around giving evidence to an enquiry. And also, I don’t – we didn’t support the
26 Truth Project and I saw one of the responses from the survivors referring them to
27 the Truth Project. Personally I would ask you wouldn’t do that but you’re going
28 to do whatever you do – I know you’ll do whatever you do. But we’ve got
29 support services within Islington that have been set up with our full involvement
30 and they’re solid. The Truth Project is, I think, exploiting individual survivors for
31 the purposes of research. It’s all anonymised and goes to research. It doesn’t
32 feed in to justice or healing or processes which get them any kind of justice. So
33 it’s unethical. I think it’s an unethical process and I know two Islington survivors
34 have been there and been very distressed by it.
48
1 MS MORGAN: I was curious to know why you pulled out because obviously as you
2 would expect anyone doing any kind of investigative work of any bit at the
3 moment looks at the overarching terms of reference in IICSA activity. I hadn’t
4 immediately seen, having looked at those terms of reference, what it was that led
5 you to pull out from it so I was just curious to know that.
6 DR DAVIES: You see a lot of the Islington abuse was physical. It was torture. Mainly
7 when I speak to survivors it’s torture. Second to that is sexual abuse. So that’s
8 not, IICSA is not interested in that. They’re only interested in sexual which is
9 why Winter Key is so different really because that’s a narrow focus. You can’t
10 understand what happened in Islington without seeing all forms of abuse. All
11 forms. I think that’s abusive to survivors as well, to say we’re only interested in
12 this bit. I couldn’t support that at all.
13 MS MORGAN: As I say, I’ve fallen into my own side alley there because it’s not
14 relevant to my terms of reference but I was perplexed by the fact that you’d pulled
15 out of it.
16 DR DAVIES: Yeah, we had all free representation, everything from
17 [Enright Solicitors?] working with the Mansfield Chambers and so on. So we had
18 good support in that way, they produced some wonderful documents of evidence
19 but in the end we could see it was not a good route.
20 MS MORGAN: And you’re obviously, you know, perfectly entitled to your own view
21 of both of the wider IICSA point and the Truth Project and I see that. I was just
22 interested.
23 DR DAVIES: Yes, thank you. The other, the other, there’s the building of support
24 services within Islington is I think going well. We are being included in that.
25 MS MORGAN: Insofar as I know anything about it I don’t think I disagree with that.
26 As I say, a different bit of Islington [inaudible].
27 DR DAVIES: It’s work in progress but that’s good because it means they’re working
28 with us and they certainly assisted survivors with housing issues, benefits, all
29 sorts of issues. But the other aspect is the redress of course. We’ve put in – we’re
30 represented by Leigh Day.
31 MS MORGAN: Again, not something I know about but I understand to be on-going.
32 DR DAVIES: That is on-going. Again, the Lambeth, we work closely with Shirley
33 Oaks survivors so Mansfield Chambers is representing them and Sam Stein from
34 Mansfield Chambers representing ours with the redress.
49
1 MS MORGAN: Is ‘us’ Islington survivors?
2 DR DAVIES: Islington survivors, no, not me personally. I’ve no legal representation
3 of any kind or I’d have had them with me today. No, I don’t have any legal but
4 with the survivors role yes, so the documents have gone to the Council. It’s not
5 secret at all, putting a proposal very similar to the Shirley Oaks redress scheme
6 which is going ahead now, our redress scheme. We understand Richard Watts is
7 waiting for you to finish your work before the redress scheme can come into play
8 or be considered – be considered. So that’s the latest we’ve heard on that. But,
9 you know… That’s important. Redress is important. I won’t – I won’t give up
10 until I see there’s something like that in place for survivors because, you know,
11 it’s an important part of the picture. Maybe that’s all been achieved. But I’m
12 most pessimistic. I know we’re on record, but I kind of have given up on
13 prosecutions. I’ve kind of given up on addressing people who have current listed
14 children. Because I don’t know what more I can do. But, so… Where I can focus
15 is support systems and redress scheme.
16 MS MORGAN: Well I, as you know, focusing on something else but I’m aware that
17 those things are on-going. And I know, because you’ve told me in your
18 submissions and your documents that you have reported various key people to the
19 correct channels, LADO and the police and so on over the years.
20 DR DAVIES: Yeah.
21 MS MORGAN: I’m certainly not stepping into their own territory.
22 DR DAVIES: No.
23 MS MORGAN: But I had reached the end of… Have I covered everything that was on
24 my list? For the tape I was asking Lucy rather than you if I’ve covered everything
25 on my list because I occasionally forget it. But I understand that you and I have
26 different focuses on – in terms of reference, but I am grateful for you for coming
27 to talk to me. I’m particularly grateful to you for helping me with those questions
28 I have which are specifically about Sandy Marks because that’s the terms of
29 reference I have been given because it is important to me to know how much of
30 what people with different focuses, specifically in relation to the allegations that I
31 have about her – I have to uphold about her. I’m grateful to you for that. I know
32 you said you need to be away by two and I’d like to take credit for the fact that
33 it’s three minutes to two now. I’m afraid that’s a complete coincidence. I
50
1 assume, perhaps we shouldn’t have this part transcribed but I assume if your
2 grandchild had been on the way the phone would have rung by now.
3 DR DAVIES: It would have rung.
4 MS MORGAN: On a serious note, I’ll strike that bit out.
5 DR DAVIES: No, that’s fine.
6 MS MORGAN: That’s obviously a personal reference to your life. We are at the early
7 stages of getting this transcribed. When there’s a transcript I’ll send it to you for
8 approval.
9 DR DAVIES: Okay, thank you.
10 MS MORGAN: And thank you for coming.
11 DR DAVIES: One, just one thing to mention, Eileen Fairweather is a very big person
12 in this whole story, I’m sure you realise. I am still in touch with her as a friend
13 really; we don’t work together anymore because she’s not a journalist anymore.
14 But should you come across a particular question or something you say it really
15 would be helpful to you I would be happy to convey that to her.
16 MS MORGAN: Thank you very much.
17 DR DAVIES: All right? Does that help?
18 MS MORGAN: It does – or it may, it may.
19 DR DAVIES: I don’t think. She wouldn’t want to come or have anything to do, it’s
20 not appropriate now at this point in time for her, without getting into that. But she
21 would always, she’s always helpful to me even now when I say, ‘Do you
22 remember this or that?’ She’ll help me what she can remember.
23 MS MORGAN: I don’t know if I might have a question for her but what she as
24 everyone else would have to know is the point that I mentioned to you in email as
25 with your list of questions I asked you. I’m not in the business of the ‘off the
26 record’.
27 DR DAVIES: No, no, no, no, well it could be on record that you asked me to ask her.
28 MS MORGAN: It may well be, it may well be that she would be happy to answer, I
29 don’t know, a written question or something but at the moment I don’t know that I
30 will have questions.
31 DR DAVIES: You can be on record asking me and then I put it in writing that I’d
32 spoken to her and that’s a clarification. It would be a point of clarification,
33 wouldn’t it?
34 MS MORGAN: I don’t know what it might be.
51
1 DR DAVIES: No.
2 MS MORGAN: It might be nothing; it might be something. It depends what else I
3 find.
4 DR DAVIES: It’s only an offer to be helpful.
5 MS MORGAN: And I’m extremely grateful for the offer. I have a lot of stuff in
6 writing actually. A great load of documents.
7 DR DAVIES: Yes, okay.
8 MS MORGAN: So thank you so much for coming.
9 DR DAVIES: Thank you.
10 MS MORGAN: I’ll walk you out because I think you need to go through a swiped
11 door. Lucy, will you turn off the recording?
12
13 (Interview concluded)